Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): My question today is for the Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services. In this new era of accountability and co-operation, why didn't you have the common decency and courtesy to the operator, the young offenders and their families know before you told the media that you have plans to close Project Turnaround?

Hon Monte Kwinter (Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services): I thank the member for the question. You should know that this particular facility, operation turnaround, has been under review for some time. There is a contract that expires January 31, 2004, and we were looking in a responsible way to see whether or not that should be continued. After looking at the figures, after looking at the costs, which were, in many respects, absurd when you consider that today there are 15 young offenders in that facility with 40 staff, which is 2.8 staff members for every one offender, whereas in our other youth facilities the ratio is one staff to eight young offenders -- it made no economic sense. The facility has problems. We have absolutely conformed to our contractual arrangements. There was no indication that this contract would be reviewed. If it was to be reviewed, it would have to go out to new public tender. The decision was made in the interests of saving $2.5 million per year for the taxpayers.

Mr Dunlop: Thank you very much, Minister, for that response. First of all, that wasn't the question I asked. Second of all, it's not "operation turnaround," it's "Project Turnaround."

Minister, recently you've been responding to the media about your leader's desire to close Project Turnaround. To correct some of the comments before I ask my question, you need to know the following facts about Project Turnaround. The per diem costs are 33% less than those of other provincial facilities. Youths do not volunteer to come to Project Turnaround, and Project Turnaround is the only facility that has a certified vocational program and the only facility where programs are mandatory. Fourth, you and your leader have never visited Project Turnaround.

In light of these facts, of which you're already clearly not yet aware, are you prepared to stand in the House today and tell the staff and youth at Project Turnaround that you will review the private sector operator's contract and endeavour to keep this efficient and successful facility open?

Hon Mr Kwinter: You should know that the decision has been taken. The contract will not be renewed.

You should also know that some of the suppositions that you have indicated are not true. I've heard reports about the recidivism rate. You should know that (a) they have to volunteer in order to go there, and (b) there are no young offenders who have been charged currently or in the past for either arson, sex offences or homicide. Thirdly, any young offender who goes back into the regular system is not included.

So when you take this small amount -- and today there are 15 young offenders in that facility that's meant to hold 32. If you use that number, then you can't possibly compare 800 young offenders with a whole range of very serious crimes and take 15 who have serious crimes but not to that extremity and say that we're comparing one to the other.